måndag 4 april 2016

Comment Wikitree and hatnotes

Comment to Maryann see G2G at Wikitree
My suggestion is steal what is good and skip the rest....

BUT you must start defining the user requirements you have inside Wikitree... An user on Wikitree doesn't have the same requirements as a wikipedia reader or a family search user.... I started to define what user requirements I found interesting when communicating with people trying to do Swedish genealogy on Wikitree see user story list.

A) This discussion is not about using a template for disambiguation. It's about using a template to format the text added to a category to describe that category.

Magnus: hatnote is friend with disambiguation. Its like footnote and sources... sure you can use sources without footnotes but many people think footnotes makes it easier to read the text.... A hatnote is an easy way to tell someone this is what this page is about BUT there is other pages on xxx that maybe is what you are interested in....

Quote from 
Disambiguation paper above 

Two methods of disambiguating are discussed here:
  • disambiguation links – at the top of an article (hatnotes), that refer/link the reader to other Wiki articles with similar titles or concepts.
  • disambiguation pages – non-article pages that refer/link readers to other Wiki articles.
B) None of the category pages uses a template to format its description.

Magnus: Yes many doesn't and that is stupid... I have also seen they use a lot of templates but not use hatnote so much. They often format it as a hatnote on a page. My humble opinion is that this is as "stupid" as people in Wikitree don't use inline <ref> tag and instead add the number themselves.....

It's not a big deal (look and feel is the same) but with my humble words it's stupid (wikipedia is much more consequent/mature but they started with templates 2004.....) and lesson learned after using templates the last 2 months use it for everything.... maintenance is much much easier....you can never predict what changes you would like to do in the future.... maybe mobile devices requires something else.... I tested last week an Iphone app that is dependent on that a Wiki page had a hatnote format in a special way.... 

C) Some of the category pages also add a link to a main article by using a template. 

Magnus: Yes if I understand you correct I think that is part of the "game" you agree that the Delaware article about the states is "Delaware" main article.....

Maybe that is something for Wikitree..... to state that this is the main article.

(Bad thing inside Wikitree is that you don't have talk pages on categories where things like things like this can be documented/discussed... (they exist in namespace 15 but are not activated on Wikitree))

D)  Categories are used to group subcategories and articles and contains no information about the topic. The linked articles contain information related to the topic

Magnus: I assume you argue about having text on categories or not.... My understanding
  1. The Family Search Wiki is a Wiki about genealogy
  2. The Family Search Wiki is trying to help people do genealogy and have magic articles about how to....
  3. BUT they don't have profiles inside this wiki
so my point is 
  • Wikitree is not Wikipedia 
  • Wikitree is not FamilySearch

    ..... and Wikitree has to find it's own way.
My vote has been and still is use categories to connect information to the profile that makes me understand more/ find new sources.... ==>
  1. Add value to profiles by adding categories
  2. On the category add information = links resources/maps etc....
  3. Make categories easy to use ==> use templates
After spending 3 months getting this started I feel nr 3 is the problem inside Wikitree. Wikitree is a wiki not using templates/see the benefits of using templates.... 

I have tried to get a dialogue with dear Chris and my feeling is that doing wiki with templates is not his priority in life, he feels more it's another headache.... but he doesn't say no.... and as he told me to slow down and Michelle gave up then no one is nearly creating templates any more... and if something is done its just some project graphic with inline css.... 

And maybe Wikitree has a non written policy that priority is to be as easy to use as possible ==> a bio section is just text with a project graphic..... I miss some vision inside Wikitree but I also understand that Chris himself can't "compete" with organisations like FamilySearch/ Wikipedia ....

Using categories to connect a profile to more "knowledge" or find maps with the places or a way to learn more about related subjects is not interesting (for me that is genealogy, adding data from the church book is less interesting...). 

With categories you can connect a profile to knowledge that is related to the profile and get more imnformation about what is on the profile example:

I spent 50 minutes on Family Search and created a sandbox page see User:Salgo60/Sandbox and they have most of the templates I think should be in the toolbox at Wikitree..... so maybe its better to link from Wikitree always to Family Search as they are better on creating genealogy pages ?!?!? They also upgraded last weekend and now have
  • Visual editor ==> end user don't have to play with markup tags. Lesson learned is that I feel the editor is brilliant but people at Wikipedia don't see it as the solution on the problem that "normal" people have problems using a wiki....
  • Modules like Image map ==> clickable maps (Help) ex. AUOHEnglandWI more
  • RenameCategory module ==> easy to change names on categories
  • Better search using CirrusSearch

Example:
Infobox
Template:Infobox_Swedish_Parishes
SidebarTemplate:Sweden-sidebar
Clickable map
Template:Sweden_Image_Map


 .....
Breadcrumbs


                  
                   Navbox that can expand/collapse
                            Template:Sweden



E) Disambiguation pages are not category pages, they are in the main namespace - see Delaware (disambiguation).


Magnus: Yes and that is how Family Search solve it and in my opinion Family Search is not = Wikitree. Wikitree use today a "hatnote" see link and then links on every category to all categories or a link to a main category...?!?!?  is that good/bad. What happened when we get 40 languages.....


F) the template {{Geodis}} is used to disambiguate between articles, not categories, that have the same place-name.


Magnus: Wikitree has problems with name conflicts on categories and todays solution is add a language code and if that is not unique....?

The concept/problem with disambiguation exists in Wikitree and need a solution.... but right now I feel no one focus on that....If a page like Europe (en) is some kind of container for linking to other versions of Europe that could be one way. I think more text is better than just a table with links plus the current design is not working on mobile phones....Wikitree users maybe never access Wikitree from a mobile........ 


G) Template Hatnote: Category-specific templates: none are used to format category descriptions.


Magnus: As said earlier that is as stupid as numbering footnotes by hand and not use <ref tags> or refuse internet for genealogy and start sending postcards ;-) is my humble opinion.... Wikipedia is much more consequent but they started with templates 2004 and as someone said Wikipedia has editors who are young and technical interested which maybe Wikitree doesn't....


H) Category redirects - ... #REDIRECT should not be added to category pages.


Magnus: As said earlier my suggestion is use categories for adding values to profiles, BUT as Wikitree is like Wikipedia before 2004 and are not using templates maybe we should link always from Wikitree categories to FamilySearch articles and then the Redirect is done "over there".... ==> Wikitree has no problems...


  1. A description of the category -- what it should and should not contain.
  2. A note about how you arrived at the category's name

Magnus: That is in Family Search land and maybe Wikitree land should just link to Family Search pages....

Family Search have proven that they are more advanced wiki users and have an organisation for developing pages...


I think Chris has indirect told us that Wikitree prio is not template development or upgrade the Wikipedia software. New development should be done in agreement with a G2G discussions which I feel is Chris and Maryanne asking us to vote on template policies or hat notes....==> I have seen no change the last 6 months... more than some hardcoded tables on Europe (en) using inline CSS and tables

J) A navigation template or navbox is a grouping of links used in multiple related articles to facilitate navigation between those articles.

Magnus: Yes story is that "Normal wiki navigation" using categories is not user friendly. In the Sweden Wikitree category tree last time I looked we had 11 levels ==> 11 click to find the page you are searching after and if we check the usage statistics then very few people access those pages in best case me and Lena...

If its navigation between articles or categories doesnt matter as you have the same problem..... out of the box Wiki categories are not good for navigating more complex structures.....

Example of a navigation template that saves a lot of clicks in a category tree....

Template:History_of_Europe_templates if you have the navigation collapsed as default then its just one line.....

This template expanded


and collapsed ==> one row with a show button to the right


My plan has been to add all category info on a page to a collapsed box ==> takes no space and if people would like to learn more about the content of a Wikitree category then just click on it.....

Status: is a template needs to be developed

Problem Wikitree in General:

We miss a development process in Wikitree and a meeting structure. I have tried with most people to solve this setting up a web hangout.... but this is not the wikitree way today.... 

==> 

We still 4 months later are not moving forward one inch instead people try to develop things under the radar or not at all.... or like me move on to other places....

What is needed for navigational boxes and hide/expand at WIkitree
Creating a navigation template with hide/expand I think we can copy/paste most from Family Search (they dont use LUA as Wikipedia do) and this has been my plan since december 2015.....

Wikitree to do is some templates plus javascript
  1. server based javascript see wikimedia:common.js
    1. See one example jquery.makeCollapsible
  2. server based css to get rid of inline css MediaWiki:Common.css
    1. class navbox...
    2. .... 
  3. create templates
    1. navbox
    2. navbar
    3. Nowrap begin end

Thats it....

But maybe we don't want to have navigational boxes  as its just between articles ;-)
Serious the Europe (en) I feel is a perfect place for a template {{Europe}} that is a navigational box collapsed that can be used on all Europe categories.... what will happen when you should support all languages in Europe (42 languages has more than one million speakers)....

IF
 Wikitree don't start using disambiguation pages which I think is the wiki way of solving problems with namespace.....   

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